Competitive/Advanced Gaming Discussion


Plus sf fighting system is really complex. Not saying smash isn’t, but it needs to be more cohesive and balanced. Very technical stuff.


Yeah I am pretty excited about the cast. Will be weird without some but there is for sure going to be more than who were announced. They say more are on the way.

I loved 3rd Strike’s roster despite it having a bunch of new people at the time. SFV bridges the gap to 3rd Strike finally. SF6 should be completely uncharted territory.

Also Andrex, how many of those Smash Bros. characters you brag about are clones? lol


Anyways I’m interested in seeing what they do with the story mode. That’s a SF first right?[/quote]

Yeah there are various interviews with Ono about it. It is something they wanted to do and he liked how MK does it. We will see how it is.


The point wasn’t character count but more about value. I was responding to Ken’s troll a little too straight-faced, though, so my apologies there.

As for clones, the Smash series has mostly avoided them outright since Melee. The ones from Melee have been differentiated (sometimes substantially) in further games, and Smash 4 only introduced two (Lucina and Dark Pit, who are both bleh.)

Just cause I like wasting time, I’ll break down each possible clone:

Mario vs. Luigi: Mario got the FLUDD in Brawl, and a lot of tweaks have gone into Luigi like his Luigi Missile and Fire Jump Punch (OHKO on >40% opponents.)

Fox vs. Falco: About as different as Mario and Luigi. If you’re a Falco player you can probably do well with Fox but it just won’t feel “right” to you.

Link vs. Toon Link: Toon Link is quite different from and a lot more visually distinctive than his predecessor Young Link. I don’t consider him Toon Link clone, personally (but that might be bias because he’s one of my favorites to play as.)

Mewtwo vs. Lucario: Not clones, period.

Marth vs. Ike: Not clones.

Marth vs. Roy: Roy in Smash 4 is really heavily tweaked from his Melee incarnation. He’s in between his outright-clone Melee self and Falco now in terms of "clone-ness I think.

Marth vs. Robin: Not clones.

Marth vs. Corrin: Not clones.

Ness vs. Lucas: Lucas is probably the most-different “outright” clone of anyone except maybe Wolf from Brawl. Most of his specials are different and he has a tether-grab. (Also might be biased here because Lucas is another one of my faves, lol.)

Mario vs. Dr. Mario: Ironically, now that Mario has the FLUDD, Dr. Mario is less of a clone since he retains Mario’s 64/Melee moveset. He’s been tweaked from Melee but to what extent I’m not sure, I just know that he seems more popular in tourneys than vanilla Mario.

Phew, that was fun. :stuck_out_tongue:

Counting the Mii’s as one character, I’d say Smash 4 has 48 to 51 non-clone unique characters (depending on how you land on Luigi, Falco, and Toon Link), which is still pretty insane.


I didn’t mention anything about clones. I don’t see why people complain about them either. And a preemptive strike: I don’t know why people think Fighting Games have a predetermined number of character slots before development.


Smash does (not counting DLC.) They lay out all the characters the game will have before development, although some of them get cut. Bowser, Mewtwo, and Dedede were planned for Smash 64 (along with Final Smashes); Dixie Kong, Roy, Dr. Mario, Plusle & Minun, Toon Zelda and Sheik, and Mewtwo were planned for Brawl (though I’m dubious about the Melee returners, those might have just been imported from Melee early in development for test data.)

I don’t hold clones against the development team, though. Sakurai has reiterated that clones don’t negatively impact development since they usually start out as alternate costumes before being split off so they can tweak the fighter data.


Well, it still seems like that time and resources determined the final number of the roster.

That’s another thing. People don’t seem to understand that it actually takes a lot to just make one character.


In my opinion this latest incarnation screwed up the original classic casts from the first couple and made them weak as kittens. I used to dominate in Melee with Luigi and I mostly can’t on Wii U with him. All the NEW characters are great and dominant though lol


Well that’s weird, because Luigi’s one of the best characters in Smash 4. Combos and kill-confirms off of grabs everywhere.


Melee Luigi is unplayable for me, haha. He felt so much better in Brawl, and Smash 4 carried over a lot of that (though I’m still iffy about his Luigi Missile auto-cancelling if you hold it for too long.)

Of the 64/Melee veterans in Smash 4, the following are in high tiers (S through C):

Sheik (#1)
Pikachu (#5)
Fox (#7)
Mario (#8)
Ness (#13)
Captain Falcon (#14)
Yoshi (#15)

Luigi specifically was:
#12 out of 12 in Smash 64
#13 out of 26 in Melee
#28 out of 38 in Brawl
#16 out of 56 in Smash 4

His placement in Smash 4 is the highest he’s ever attained.


I guess it’s all relative.


Smash 4 newcomers lower than Luigi on the tier list:

Dark Pit
Mega Man
Bowser Jr.
Wii Fit Trainer
Duck Hunt
Little Mac


Idc about tiers, I care about how I, personally use them. Not only the new ones but also the DLC characters all seem to be great as well.


[quote=“Andrex”]Luigi specifically was:
#12 out of 12 in Smash 64[/quote]
I thought Luigi was #10. Like, above Samus and Link.


Well you said “dominant,” and tiers track the domination of the characters.

The DLC characters probably “have to” be good so people feel like they get their money’s worth, and it’s probably even more important for third-party characters. Publishers probably wouldn’t like seeing their IP in the “F” tier and hardly-used by people in high-profile tournaments.

I thought Luigi was #10. Like, above Samus and Link.[/quote]

One of the later tier lists must have bumped him down. Don’t know why, I don’t follow the 64 scene as much.


Yeah, I looked. They did bump him down to #12. They also bumped Yoshi to #5. :slight_smile:

Also bad news, the stick I ordered isn’t coming. The good news is that they had the decency to tell me and are going to refund it.


Speaking of DLC characters, I really want to put some time into learning Lucas more. He’s not “dominant” but I love how he plays (other than his recovery…)


Daigo Vs. Lupe Fiasco coming up.

You know, I haven’t even played it yet, but it already looks better than Street Fighter IV. I don’t think I’ll be playing it much until Alex comes out and I have my stick.

Actually, one thing I’ve been worrying about is my computer not being able to run it. I do have the game ready driver for it, but it hasn’t shown up on the game list yet. Guess I’ll find out in two hours.


Holy shit. Lupe beat Daigo in the first game.

Lupe beat Daigo. Wow. I imagine this will just make Daigo come back stronger though.


Welp. I tried Street Fighter V on my computer. It had a heart attack just from fiddling with some of the graphic settings. I guess I just have to stick with having a downgraded resolution until I can get a better graphics card.

Also, Daigo apparently never played Street Fighter V until that match. That explains why he wasn’t doing as well as he usually does.